Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson Beverly. Welcome to the Bookshop podcast. Each week, I present interviews with independent bookshop owners from around the globe, authors, publishing professionals and specialists in subjects dear to my heart the environment and social justice. To help the show reach more people, please share it with friends and family and on social media, and remember to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this podcast. You're listening to episode 234. Blue Willow Bookshop is a locally owned independent bookshop that has served the greater Houston community and encouraged a passion for reading in all ages since 1996. Staffed by a merry band of avid and opinionated readers, blue Willow facilitates and organizes over 350 author events for adults, students and children each year, partnering with a wide variety of Houston schools and organizations. While you're at the bookshop, check out the 750 plus author signatures on the walls and their wide selection of puzzles, games and gifts. Hi, Valerie, and welcome to this show. It's lovely to have you here. Oh, I'm happy to be, here.
Speaker 1:Well, that's good to hear. Let's begin with learning about you and what led you to become the owner of Blue Willow Bookshop.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of a circuitous route. I did a lot of things I have a degree in drama but stayed home once my kids were born. Before that I worked in the restaurant industry and in outside sales Fast forward to 1995, and we were living in California at the time and we thankfully got transferred back home. This is my home. I grew up here in Houston, with high school here, and I told my husband, I said I will look at any neighborhood, I want to be in a certain school district and I cannot live past a certain street. I said it's just too far away, it's just too far out there. So of course our house is one and a half blocks east of that said street and the bookstore is on the corner, on the intersection of the corner of Jerry Ashford Memorial.
Speaker 2:So I saw the bookshop and I remembered having gone in there when we lived here before in the 80s. So I popped in. My son was starting kindergarten and I said you know, I just, I just want to see what this is like. I'm a big reader, I love to read. And almost immediately the owner at the time, miesbel Knot, was it. She was ready to retire and her health was not right, and so she, after a few months of working there, when I told her I worked for free, of course, she said yes, who wouldn't? We've all done it Absolutely. And we became good friends and she approached me about buying the bookstore.
Speaker 2:I told my husband he says you're crazy. I said I know, but I'll regret it forever if I don't try doing this. And so I bought it in October of 1996, changed it to Blue Willow. Everybody asks where that came from. It comes from the China, supposed to evoke grandma and home. I would not choose it again. It's hard to say with a phone, fast, and anyway, that's that's how we started in and I just, I've just kept it going. It. You know, I've always, whenever one wonderful team member leads, another, one just shows up at the door, it's like it's just been fabulous. I've just been very blessed to have my event coordinator, kathy Burner, and my, as I say, my right arm, alice Malloy, who does all the backlist ordering, keeping track of everything. She's fabulous.
Speaker 1:So yeah, great team, love them I think behind every successful business is a great team. No doubt about it, it's true. I love the description under meet the staff on the Blue Willow website. It states, quote Blue Willow Bookshop is run by a team of opinionated, well read women. Our staff meetings are full of laughter, our back room is full of snacks and we absolutely love putting the right book into our readers' hands. May we hold your baby while you browse? Was it accidental that you have an all women cast of booksellers?
Speaker 2:Yes, that's us. That's us all over the place. And in fact our UPS driver this morning said why do you always have snacks in the back? We do. We have snacks in the back and we give them water and we're just. You know we're not perfect people, but we do get along and we read all over the map there's. We read all kinds of different things. I was looking through the staff reviews for January and February and it's just a mix of everything. So, yeah, we're very opinionated and we don't always agree.
Speaker 1:Oh, not always agreeing. I think it's a healthy sign. Before we went on air, you were saying that you actually have a couple of young men working with you now.
Speaker 2:I do. I have two young men, two teenage boys, go to Stratford High School behind us and they're wonderful. So we try to mix it up. We haven't had many men throughout the 27 years, it's not been for lack of trying, and we do try to have a diverse group too. We try to just keep it different. We read romance not me. We read very literary, we read memoirs, we read everything and of course, half the store is kids. So we're huge into reading picture books and new novels for beginner readers and then up through the teens.
Speaker 1:Having a large, reading diverse group of people as booksellers is what makes a bookshop great. Because here's an example Years ago I went into the last book store in downtown Los Angeles and I wanted something in the dark fantasy, thriller genre, and one of the booksellers approached me and asked me what I was looking for. And I told her and she said, oh, you need to speak to so and so I've forgotten his name. I'm sorry. She found him, introduced us.
Speaker 1:He asked me about different books I'd read and he mentioned a few and I 'd already read them. And then he said have you read George R R Martin's fever dream? It's historical fiction set on the Mississippi and there's a vampire involved. And I said, well, for starters, no, I haven't read it. And I didn't know that George R R Martin wrote vampire books. And he said this is his only one. I'll go get you a copy. Of course I bought it and read it and he was right. It's fantastic. I think you're really lucky that you have booksellers who kind of many curate their own genres that they love to read. It's great.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I asked the staff to listen when someone is hand selling a book that's maybe outside of your personal wheelhouse. Romance, again, I. It's just not my thing, but that's okay. I've got a number of staff on hand to love to read romance and I just listen to them and I follow their direction. We all have our different Things that we'd like to read and I do try to change it up what I'm reading said that I have a little bit of everything.
Speaker 1:Well, that's good. Now let's get serious for a moment, because in july twenty twenty three, blue willow bookshop, along with austin's book people and the american booksellers association Both have been on the show and the association of american publishers, the authors guild and the comic book legal defense fund file to stop a new state law in texas hb nine hundred texas's controversial book rating bill. I'm just going to read a piece that was in publishers weekly, hb nine hundred, signed by governor greg abbot on june twelfth. This first of its kind law requires booksellers and library vendors to review and rate books for sexual content under a vaguely articulated standard as a condition of doing business with texas public schools, and that's not only for new books. The law requires booksellers to go back and rate every book previously sold to texas schools An impossible undertaking. Booksellers say can you walk us through hb nine hundred and explain where this dance now?
Speaker 2:Sure. So this bill originated with a legislator from north texas. We started to see grumblings and rumblings about the politicization of the school boards and when we saw this bill for the first time we thought it was so vaguely and poorly worded that there's no way that it was going to get out of committee. And my friends that book people being right around across the street from the capital, I went in and talked in. I kept saying my fault, that there's no way somebody's gonna stand up at some representative is gonna stand up and say whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This isn't gonna work. I did not. It passed through both the house and the senate and our governor signed it, as you said, in june. And then in july, after discussions with a, b, a, which I served on for many years, the board, so I'm kind of familiar with how that works and know them we got together with people and decided this was gonna be something that we needed to protest, we needed to object to because the vague wording what is sexually explicit? We still don't know. What is sexually relevant, we still don't know. And yet the law says that that the guidelines would come down in january and they're very proud of themselves. They say the guidelines have come down, but those are guidelines for librarians, not guidelines for vendors, and the judge in the western district of texas put an injunction on the law and the state has appealed to the fifth circuit court of appeals, which is in new orleans. Three judges on the panel. The week after, after thanksgiving, they heard oral arguments. I cautiously optimistic that the judges will understand the what were up against.
Speaker 2:So the law says that we have to rate every book that we sell to a school library. It also says that we have to rate every book we've ever sold to school library, which is ridiculous. I don't know all the books I've ever sold. I don't know if I've sold a book to a library Under the auspices of somebody buying them personally in the store. I don't know what's on their shelves. I don't want to rate something that they don't even have on their shelf anymore and it's mind boggling. There's no possible way every bookstore owner will tell you I have not read every book in the store. There is no possible way we could. We wouldn't have a store because we would be at home reading all the time. So to go back and read and to have someone read them with the idea that they are going to look at any sexual Passages about sex. Mentioning sex I don't know. It is mind boggling. We would go out of business because we wouldn't be able to do it. So that is a post to go into effect in april.
Speaker 2:I am hoping, with my fingers crossed, that the fifth circuit court will find the right thing to do. I understand that librarians need guidelines. Great, if you've got your guidelines. And you've got your guidelines, all I'm doing is filling your order. I'm just gonna fill your order as a vendor. We've gotten a lot of pushback about that, but at the end of the day it's gonna be the loss for the library patrons, the students and the ramifications of it. We do over 350 events a year. We do a lot of them in schools. That will just dry up. We just won't be able to do that, and so that really hurts.
Speaker 1:It's completely insane, and I was listening to you and writing notes while you were speaking. Were the booksellers and bookshop owners ever told how long they had to read all of their backlist? No no no, as it is now, this bill only affects Texas. However, if we look at Florida and the book banning crisis that is happening there and in a few other states, hb 900 could actually spread to other states. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yes, which is why those organizations have joined this lawsuit, because they know that if Texas can pass it, then other states can pass it too. And that is of grave concern, as I said again, for the library patrons and the safe space that school libraries are supposed to be. I mean, it's a safe space. You're supposed to be able to read a book. You might read about tough subjects, okay, and I'm fully cognizant of a parent saying I don't want my kids to read that, but you can't decide for all the parents. And this is where the students go to feel safe, to explore ideas and hard truths, and we're taking that away from them.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately and I've got to think that the people who are rolling with this bill would like to see this happen is that a lot of independent bookshops will have to close. There's no way they could read every backlist book they have in a certain amount of time and there's no way they could survive if they can't sell books that are deemed unsuitable. But the crux of this bill, the reason why it is so sad, is thousands, hundreds of thousands of children are going to miss out reading fabulous literature, wonderful children's and YA books, books that may help them understand who they are, or children that need an escape. You know, quite often we forget that children go to libraries after school or at weekends, because that is their escape. That's the safe place where they can go, they can read and escape into another world, another story. To take this away from them is ludicrous.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's true, exactly. And in high school I like to say that the pundits are all saying well, you know, we're taking the porn out of the libraries, we're taking the porn out of school. Oh no, there is so much porn in your school you have no idea. Every one of those kids has one of these. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:A cell phone.
Speaker 2:Every one of those kids has one of these and everything they ever wanted to see and their parents don't want them to see is on that little device. I say there's more in the hallway than there is in the library. You know the library. There might be a few things that might be a little eye opening for some parents. But I think that high school students they read world literature, they take advanced placement classes.
Speaker 1:Valerie, please let me know if there's anything I can do to help spread the word on the podcast in any post that you have that I can share on social media. I will, please. Do you know? I was thinking. Surely it's got to come back to the publishers. That will have to be the ones to rate whatever books they're publishing.
Speaker 2:Possibly, I don't know. There's a little bit of a rating system already in place that the publishers put. I can tell you that if a parent asks me or someone asked me about a book, I go onto a website and it says 14 and up. I'm going to tell them there's some content in there. They've already, the publishers have already said, because if it was a little bit less content heavy, they would have said 12 and up. So we can kind of gauge there.
Speaker 2:But we don't always. We don't always know, and the librarians are trained. They have masters of science and they're trained to discern and they also, at least in art, in most of our school districts here in Texas, they're required to have two well received reviews, two reviews from respected sources. But we do hope that this is something that it's not going to go away. The other part of this that we don't talk about a lot is that the state of Texas has several hot spot points, if you will, and this was an easy pass on this one. This was an easy vote for it because they didn't want to have to vote on the two things that are most crucial our public education and our border situation. So this was easy. Yeah, let's just go make some other people rate these books.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's get on to something lighter and fun, because you and I have something in common we both adore the Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh my god, I can't believe it. One of the very first books I read as a bookseller. I loved it. There was a time when I made all new staff read it. I don't do that anymore, but I did. I wanted them to understand this. This is a perfect mashup, don't you think? A perfect mashup, of a little bit of science fiction. And Mary came to the store once, gosh years ago not for that book, but she, you know. She talked about how she considered it science fiction, but her publisher didn't want it published as science fiction because it would be relegated to a separate section when it's really about humanity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is definitely.
Speaker 2:It's really about humanity, Wouldn't you say. I mean, when you read the part where the priests well, there are several priests on the asteroid headed toward this other planet and he comes to a reckoning with Jesus and God. It's just so much going on there. Loved it, Still sell it all the time.
Speaker 1:I've lost count of how many times I've read it. It's strange too, because when I recommend it to other readers, if they haven't already read it and loved it, they'll say to me well, what's it about? I'll say, well, you know, it's about this Jesuit priest, extra-terrestrials. And they look at me like I've gone stuck raving mad. It is such a profound book. It's a beautifully written book and pertinent. I just love it. Mary Doria Russell is a genius.
Speaker 2:Loved it. Now, did you read the sequel? No, I haven't, but I need to. Oh my gosh, you have to read the sequel because, okay, here's why you have to read the sequel Without giving anything away. The end of the sequel is the end of the story. It's almost as if she wrote the whole story in one and they said it needs to be two because it would be too long. Covenant of water, you know, barbara. So it would be this massive doorstop of a book, and but if you read Children of God, the story ends and you're like that is the ending. That is the ending.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I am going to go to my local independent bookshop, which is Bart's books in Ojai. I'm going to see if they have it, and if they don't have it in stock, I'll ask them to order it for me, because, you know what? It only takes a couple of days to come in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they'll get it for you in a few days and I'm sure you have a stack, like I do, a big stack of things to keep you busy. We don't have any lack of reading.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my TBR list always seems to be at around 24. I just can't get it down because you read one and another couple come in and honestly, I don't need that instant gratification. When I order a book and it comes at two o'clock in the morning to my front door, I like the anticipation of waiting for a new book. It's like having a new romance. You know that's what I equate it to. You just can't wait to see that person again, but you kind of can because you love that feeling. It gives you that waiting and anticipation. Okay, how important are book events for independent bookshops and were you able to quickly pivot to online events during lockdowns?
Speaker 2:We did. We did almost immediately because we had a book festival for teenagers that was scheduled in three weeks after the COVID shutdown, and so we pivoted that one very quickly and my staff figured out how to do the online zoom calls and everything else, and so we pivoted very quickly and Kathy trained, with the help of other librarians, trained librarians to do zoom events for schools so kids could log in. And the really cool part is is we've gotten to have authors. They probably would not have come to Houston, and one that I think of, along with Big Art Event Person, is our romance, goddess, if you will, and she loves an author who writes out of London and she has interviewed him now by Zoom five times and everybody says why is this guy? Only? He sends everybody to you in Texas.
Speaker 2:I'm not because Kathy loves him and, by God, we're going to do it. In fact now we had some t-shirts made and stickers and we're all about it. So, yeah, it's been a real thing and we're going to continue to do it. Our book clubs met by Zoom and now that we're back in person and have been back for a long time, we still have Zoom, in case someone doesn't drive at night or just wants to join and hear what everybody's saying about the book, and so I think it's here to stay.
Speaker 1:Yes, I agree With loneliness being a public health concern globally. Having virtual events alongside an in-person event is just a healthy thing to do and a kind thing to do for people who are still unable to get into indie book shops, or that people who never had that opportunity. But boy for them to be able to see one of their favorite authors online and to be able to ask a question in the chat.
Speaker 2:that's such a great opportunity, yeah and you can hear your favorite author. There's somewhere somebody's doing that.
Speaker 1:And who's this mystery romance author you were talking about?
Speaker 2:Alexis Hall, who we don't know what he looks like because he never. He disguises himself on screen, which is kind of a fun thing, so it's a beautiful thing. We had people calling us from this country, Tennessee, which I'm not down in Tennessee by any stretch, my son and daughter in law live there but people were calling and telling us you know what? I would never get to see any of these authors. I'm about the country and so I love joining, even if I don't even know who they are. I just love hearing what they have to say.
Speaker 1:And when you offer the virtual events, is there a cost for people to sign up? Is it free or, in some circumstances, do they need to purchase the book?
Speaker 2:Both. We do both. The majority is for free. Just sign RSVP so you will get the invitation. Some of the publishers want some sort of connection to the book, some sort of bundling, and we just talk about each one and decide whether that's something we can offer or not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's great to offer both. I can see why the publishers need there to be a fee, and there have been a few bookshops I've spoken with who say that they have actually had guests who've put a little bit more into the kitty to go towards people who haven't got the money to pay for an event, which is wonderful. Now, since 2020, I've interviewed over a hundred indie bookshop owners from around the globe, and not once have I heard anything but positivity when it comes to other indie bookshops in the same areas. Many spoke about how they help each other thrive. Can you expand on this thought and how indie bookshops differ from other businesses?
Speaker 2:I think that many of these bookstores, mine included, were friendly before. There was always a friendly camaraderie. That ABA fosters that community in a big way by hosting big conferences where people get together and share ideas. But I think the more the merrier I want indie bookstores to thrive and whenever anybody tells me even this morning someone said well, could you check your bookstore in the Rice Village, which is about 15 miles from here? And I said we don't have a bookstore in the Rice Village but there is a really great indie that you could check with. But yeah, we get along. I mean, I feel like there's room for way more in Houston.
Speaker 2:Houston has been, in a way, a book desert into the last few years. We've started adding bookstores and I love it. I am in total support. Every time they ask me a question, I tell them just ask the ABA, because I don't know the answer. No, I do tell them, but it's hard for someone who's been doing this as long as I have to answer those early on questions, because really I didn't start that way. I bought an existing store with but changed it a lot. So some of the questions I can't answer, but I fully support them. I'm, in fact, on indie book store, not indie books for a day. Well then, as well as I'm small business, saturday we posted it's still up there a map of all the indie book stores in the entire area so that people could see where they all were. And then we posted a big list of indie stores that we, like you know a pie shop and a bakery and we think that it's important that people support the locals, the local shops. We've been blessed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it's a good reminder to everybody, and I've actually written about this and I'll put the link in the show notes. During the pandemic, many people moved out of the cities into suburbs or small towns. What many found is that they loved the independent businesses and so they supported them, and what this means is that the tax dollars stay in that area. Those smaller independent businesses employ local people, and so the people that relocated found that, in order for their little towns to remain their favorite little towns, they had to support these businesses, because that's what makes those little towns and those suburbs unique it's their individuality and their personalities.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of my staff was reminding me that last year for Christmas I said if it's not in the two blocks on either side of the bookstore, no one's going to get that gift. And I only shopped in the hardware store, the clothing store, the pet shop. I mean I just said you know if you want. Of course my kids know this. I mean they've known forever. I mean they grew up in the bookstores so they are completely expecting to get well, books for Christmas and things that were bought locally.
Speaker 1:I love that you have that boundary of a couple of blocks away from the bookshop of where you buy gifts. That's fantastic. Ok, valerie. What makes a bookseller fabulous?
Speaker 2:I think, a passion for reading and a passion for sharing your love of books with people who come in the bookshop. Years at when I very first started the bookstore, my dad helped me and I think that's in my bio and we went to a conference and a gentleman who worked in hiring I don't remember what he was and he said you have to hire the smile. You can train anybody to use the cash register, but you can't hire someone to be nice. That is so true, I know, and it works and it was fabulous advice and I have kept that in my heart and that's what I try to do. Every time one door closes and another opens, I try to remember. But I really want a reader, I need readers and I need to read. I need diverse readers.
Speaker 2:We read a lot of events, reading copies. Clearly we're looking ahead for our blog and for other things. But I like it when they say you know, not my will house, but I'll try one. Not my will house, but I will try that, rather than just saying, oh, I only read poetry, oh, I only read science fiction, you know, just be willing to venture out into other categories and be willing to try new things. We also are very fortunate to partner with Libro FM, the audio book company, and so many of us not all many of us are audio book listeners, and so we always have an extra book going there, and sometimes too.
Speaker 1:And Mark from Libro FM is just lovely. He's been on the show as well. And this brings me to my last question what are you currently reading?
Speaker 2:OK, so I brought it. So the first one we're going to look at is what we're looking at. This is what I'm listening to. It's called that's Not my Name, I believe it's coming out maybe in a couple of weeks, maybe at the beginning of January Great teen mystery about a girl who is clearly missing and her friends are trying to figure out what happened to her. So that that's keeping me busy.
Speaker 2:While I walk in the morning or when I'm in the car, I am reading the Underground Library by Jennifer Ryan. She wrote the Chilbury Ladies Choir a number of years ago, which we loved. I like historical fiction. So this is about, yeah, this is about a woman, two women, one whose family sent her away from Berlin at the beginning of the Holocaust and she befriends a Londonite there over the love of reading. So, and then I'm just starting also, this is coming out and that's coming out in, I think, march, yeah, march.
Speaker 2:This is coming out in April. This is from the University of Texas Press what am I good friends as the marketing director there, and this is a memoir about a girl growing up in a very conservative, almost cultish family in West Texas and her breaking free of that. So this one, my friend Gianna from the University of Texas Press, and I have a thing about cults. Don't tell people it's ugly, that sounds wrong. But she knows that I was going to read this because it has got a cult in it. I'm going to go, I know, I know. Am I weird or what?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you tend to lean towards crime fiction, mystery, suspense.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I do. I do like a good mystery and I read all kinds. I do like a good mystery. I like historical fiction. I'm not as versed in the science fiction, although we just talked about my favorite book of all time, which is science fiction.
Speaker 1:That's right. The Sparrow by Miri Doria Russell.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, I like a mix of everything. I don't like to read the same thing too many times in a row. A couple of years ago I served on the Young People's Literature Committee for the National Book Award and that was a lot of young people reading a lot, and I at one point put the book down and said I do not want to read about a high school cafeteria yet again, not for a long time. I don't want to read about the high school cafeteria in the cliques. I'm done. I'm done for that for a while. So, yeah, I like to read all over.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's what I'm reading. Sounds like a good mix. The other day I was laughing because my husband opened the door and there was a couple of books from publishers and he said, well, one of these feels really light. And I said I think I know which book that is. And I opened it and it was a children's picture book and he said we'll just add that to the pile. So, you know, puts it on the pile. And he said you're going to be OK reading that. And I said, yeah, I think I got this one. I got it covered.
Speaker 2:Well, I love reading the children's picture books and I rarely I rarely order unless I've read the book because there are so many and they can be so not good You'd make a good diplomat.
Speaker 1:Have you read Rachel Ignatoski's books?
Speaker 2:They're fantastic, oh yes, I think those are great and I keep telling people we have a fantastic nonfiction section for kids and we have history and science and animals and I'm like I said you know, this is this is history for kids. I can read this. It's great and they're a great inspiration. So whenever I'm showing somebody new in the store, you know I try not to skip over those sections and go directly to the novels for kids. I try to tell them and for your nonfiction readers and my boys are both nonfiction readers, they were growing up this is gold here and we're really seeing some fabulous nonfiction as well as graphic novels. And the graphic novels for kids are just going insane. And I keep telling the parents these are real stories, these are novels, they have an art to it, they have a story art to it, they have a beginning and an end to it. Do not skip over it and don't let the teacher tell you that's not real reading, that they're reading comic books.
Speaker 1:They're reading. I mean, that's what we want.
Speaker 2:They're reading, yeah, and they might see something in one of those novels that encourages them to step over to the nonfiction section and read more about a particular time, a particular place, maybe a little more science, it's perfect.
Speaker 1:When they were little, both of my sons loved nonfiction. You know you'd wake up in the morning and they'd be reading an atlas. I mean, they just loved anything a book on the stars, or cows or sheep, anything cooking. They would have loved Rachel Ignatowski's books and if you ever want to get in touch with her, she is fantastic online with children too. She's great. She has this big red chair, she sits and she loves kids. She's a fantastic speaker.
Speaker 2:I heard her speak once a number of years ago at one of the Children's Institute's and she was fabulous. She was great.
Speaker 1:And yes, I love nonfiction for children, especially for boys, I know, and I don't want to sound sexist in any way, but if a little boy sees something in a book and then sees it outside, so it's in nature and it's tangible and they can touch it and smell it and feel it. It becomes a learning experience for them and I think, for some reason, this is what little boys need. Valerie, I thoroughly enjoyed chatting with you and thank you for your and thank you for all the work you are doing regarding HB 900. If there is anything I can do, absolutely anything, please reach out. I'd be more than happy to help. Thank you, mandy, and it's been great chatting with you. I'd better let you go back to work.
Speaker 2:I'm headed back to the bookstore. Yep, sell some more books, all right. Thank you so much, mandy. Take care.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to my conversation with Valerie Kola, owner of Blue Willow Bookshop in Houston. To find out more about the Bookshop podcast, go to thebookshoppodcastcom and make sure to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to the show. You can also follow me at Mandy Jackson Beverly on X, instagram and Facebook and on YouTube at the Bookshop podcast. If you have a favorite indie bookshop that you'd like to suggest we have on the podcast, I'd love to hear from you via the contact form at thebookshoppodcastcom. The Bookshop podcast is written and produced by me, mandy Jackson Beverly, theme music provided by Brian Beverly, executive assistant to Mandy Adrian Otterhan, and graphic design by Francis Verralla. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.