The Bookshop Podcast
The Bookshop Podcast
Kathleen Caldwell and the Heartbeat of Montclair Village
In this episode, I'm in conversation with Kathleen Caldwell, the passionate owner of A Great Good Place for Books in Montclair Village, Oakland, who opens up about her incredible journey in the book industry.
From her college days navigating aisles at Crown Books to orchestrating author events at prestigious bookstores like Shakespeare and Company, Kathleen’s story is one of resilience, community, and an unwavering love for books. She shares the heartfelt tale of taking over the store after the unexpected passing of her dear friend and previous owner, Debi Echlin. Hear about the thoughtful changes Kathleen has made, including expanding the children's section and the deep-rooted connections she’s built through fundraisers and school donations.
Get ready to discover the essence of Montclair's literary heartbeat and the importance of building relationships with independent booksellers. Kathleen offers invaluable insights for authors, highlighting the significance of community support and engagement. Learn about memorable author events, including a thrilling encounter with Buzz Aldrin, and get Kathleen’s inside scoop on her favorite reads from authors like Matt Haig and Taylor Jenkins Reid.
This episode not only celebrates the magic of finding the perfect book but also underscores the ongoing efforts to keep Montclair’s literary community thriving. Plus, don’t miss our recommendations for must-visit local spots, from the scenic Redwood Park to the delightful dishes at Daughter Thai Kitchen in Montclair Village.
A Great Good Place for Books
Go Fund Me for Kathleen Caldwell
I Would Meet You Anywhere: A Memoir, Susan Kiyo Ito
We All Want Impossible Things, Catherine Newman
The Rachel Incident, Caroline O’Donaghue
We Are the Brennans, Tracey Lange
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a bibliophile. Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast. Each week, I present interviews with authors, independent bookshop owners and booksellers from around the globe and publishing professionals. To help the show reach more people, please share episodes with friends and family and on social media, and remember to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this podcast. You're listening to episode 258. My guest today is Kathleen Caldwell, owner of A Great Good Place for Books located in the heart of Montclair Village in Oakland, california. Kathleen and I recorded this interview in May and since then, author Gail Foreman has put together a GoFundMe for Kathleen and A Great Good Place for Books a GoFundMe for Kathleen and a great good place for books. Gail has written the following on the GoFundMe page, which I'll make sure to put the link to in the show notes Kathleen Cordwell, owner and dean of A Great Good Place for Books, has been a champion to authors and their books for years, and now she and the bookstore need our help.
Speaker 1:Two years ago, kathleen fell ill with a serious case of sepsis and while being treated, doctors discovered she had cancer. She had four surgeries in one year, followed by a year of treatment and recovery. The good news is she's been cancer free for a year and is slowly regaining her strength. The bad news is the treatment coming on the heels of the pandemic and a very slow spring has left Kathleen depleted and the store on shaky ground. And so now Kathleen is turning to the authors she has championed for help very reluctantly, I might add, not wanting to be a burden to us, but if you are anything like me, you are happy to champion her right back again and to make sure her wonderful little store continues to be a beacon for readers and writers. For more information, please go to the GoFundMe page Gail Foreman has set up for Kathleen and, as I said earlier, I'll make sure to put the link in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Okay, now let's get on with this week's episode. Hi, kathleen, and welcome to the show. Oh, thank you for having me. I need to get up to your neck of the woods and check out the bookshop and the area. It looks absolutely beautiful. Oh, thank you. Well, let's begin with learning about you, what you were doing before taking over the bookshop and the circumstances that led you to become the owner of A Great, good Place for Books and I love the name of the bookshop and the circumstances that led you to become the owner of a great, good place for books.
Speaker 2:And I love the name of the bookshop. Well, the great good place is do you know Ray Oldenfield's book the Great Good Place that there are three places in the world there's the home, the work, and then there's the third place, which is the great good place, where you feel at home, and that's where the name comes from. So what was I doing before? You know, I've been in the book industry since college, so over 30 years. I started at Crown Books and then I went to Shakespeare and Company on Telegraph. I was the lone female and then I became an events coordinator out of Bonanza Books in Walnut Creek and then I became an events coordinator at a Bonanza Books in Walnut Creek, california, and went to Reader's Books in Sonoma and was their events coordinator for eight years. Came back to Lafayette and briefly had a small stint as an events coordinator at Lafayette Bookstore, which no longer exists, and he ran into some financial issues and I got downsized. And he ran into some financial issues and I got downsized and I came to work for Debbie as her events coordinator in 2004. And you stayed.
Speaker 2:Well, it was really interesting how that happened. So I came to work for her in October of 2004. We just kind of really hit it off. You know how you instantly know that someone's going to be one of your best friends. And that's kind of how we were. And for my birthday that year in April she took me out. She said if anything happens to me, will you take the store? And I said, sure, you know she was 52. I just didn't think you don't think anything's going to happen to someone you know at that age. And Thanksgiving weekend she didn't come to work the day after Thanksgiving and I thought maybe she was just out having fun. But when she didn't come to work Saturday we went looking for her. We unfortunately found her dead.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness. When something like that happens, one can't help but wonder if, somewhere in Debbie's subconscious, perhaps, she had an inkling that something was going to happen to her.
Speaker 2:Well, I think she did know. I think she knew that this was almost 19 years ago, so it feels like a different life. It was a different life. It was like one day I was the events coordinator, laughing and having fun, and the next day I had all the responsibilities of owning a business and I had no experience.
Speaker 1:At that time did you make many changes to the store.
Speaker 2:You know, one thing we did was we expanded the children's section and we really became more of a family store With Deb. She was very into it being literary and you know it was very focused on book groups. We still focus on book groups, but we changed it a bit, you know. We made it more family oriented. The kids can run around, we're much more connected to the community. You know, I mean I think she would have eventually because she was only here a few years before she passed away and I think I've kind of taken the banner where she was thinking of going and I kind of ran with it.
Speaker 1:Now you've spoken very fondly of the Montclair community. In what ways do you and the bookshop support Montclair?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean I do, I do fundraisers, I donate to all, you know I do fundraisers, I donate to all, you know, all the local schools. I'm very active on social media, which I promote the village and you know, some of my closest friends own the businesses around here because you know, I mean this has been my life for almost 20 years, so you know I spend all my time here. Yeah, I mean, I just I'm a big community person. I believe that you know, nobody does it alone.
Speaker 1:Oh, I agree, and if only we could get that thought higher up the food chain. Yes, let's call it the political food chain.
Speaker 2:I know it's so weird. When I got the store it was a totally different reality because Amazon wasn't as prominent yet we hadn't had a pandemic. You know, I mean, when you think of all the things that and do you remember the crash of 2008? Oh, absolutely, I mean you think about all the things that you survived and you just are kind of astonished, you know.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that goes from a personal level, community level to a global level.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'd love to hear about Montclair, because it looks absolutely gorgeous. Would you say that the town is an intellectual and diverse community, and does the curation of the bookshop reflect your neighbors, such as the University of California Berkeley?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, we're definitely a very it's a very creative community too. We have a lot of people who work at Pixar, which is in Emeryville. They live up here in the hills. We have a lot of musicians that live up here in the hills. It's a very diverse community too. I mean it's a very creative, family driven community. The parents will call and say have you seen so-and-so yet? I go, no, but when they come in I'll have them call and check in. You know that's the kind of community it is. You know, the funny thing is we're in the middle of a city and it feels like a village. You know it truly is a village. You know everybody cares about everybody. You know it's. I feel very lucky to be here. I mean, lord knows, this wasn't on the game plan because I was an events coordinator in my career, but I was not a great personal planner. I had no idea what I was going to do and I was 40 when I got the store.
Speaker 2:So you know it was like I had to figure out what I was going to do when I was going to grow up. When I grew up, I feel that that it was just kismet. You know, it was meant to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean what a wonderful opportunity meeting Deb and landing in the Montclair community.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I was so lucky. I was so lucky, I mean, I think, all the time, you know, like you know, when things are tough and you're thinking, oh my God, what am I doing? And then you think back and you go well, I want to be here as long as I can. You know, I feel so blessed. I feel that somebody was looking out from me up above, you know, I mean, I'm not a, you know, a religious person by any means, but I do feel that it was all kind of written in the stars and Kathleen, I'm thinking likewise for the community.
Speaker 1:I'm sure they feel that way about you too, about you too?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I'm, you know. I can give you an example In 2021 and part of 22, I was. I got really sick and my customers put a food chain together and came and brought me meals and came and hung out with me because I couldn't leave the house because of COVID, because my immune system was a little tanked. I mean, I've never heard of a community of customers and friends doing that before.
Speaker 1:Well, I see that as a reflection of who you are and what you mean to your customers and your community.
Speaker 2:I felt very lucky that I had so much support. I just feel that sometimes there's like a marriage of spirit between you and a community and I feel that that kind of.
Speaker 2:when I landed here, though I had no idea this was the future, you know when I just came in and thinking you know, when I started here, I felt that I was just going to come in, I was going to build an events program, then I was going to go do something else. You know I was going to move on, but kind of from the minute I've stepped in the door, I felt at home.
Speaker 1:I'm fascinated with this topic and I kind of can see it in books that I've read, where a part of geography or a house becomes a character in the story. And this is how I feel when we land in an area where we're thinking, what am I doing here? But the moment we get there, it feels like a main character in our lives, that it's important. And this can sometimes be kind of shocking you think you look around and you think I'm here. This feels good. It's an interesting concept, right, I've definitely learned to shut up and go with it.
Speaker 2:I know you have no idea that this was the game plan.
Speaker 1:I read an article by Lou Fancher in the Piedmont Etc. That said, of you quote it might be a challenge to find a novel, non-fiction book, collection of poems or essays or any other literary work by a local author that Caldwell hasn't read or heard of. End quote. I'd love to hear about a few local authors you've followed since their first book was published, and also new local authors you'd like to recommend.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean anything by Nina LaCour. I think she's one of our most talented writers. She won the Prince Award for we Are Okay and I literally was one of the first people to flip her books at a trade show and I've watched her career grow and I've watched her family grow and we've actually become very good friends. And then Joe DiPrisco has been a friend forever and he's written some parenting books and some education books and he's written a few novels. So I've been around for most of his career and I really love to launch books, like Susan Ito, who wrote I'll Meet you there and it's her first book. But I have really watched this book in all its iterations for the last 15 years, so it's really exciting to see it in the world. And she was nominated for the National Book Critics Award for memoir for her debut. So I mean, those are the kind of things that I really love and I would recommend anything.
Speaker 2:I would recommend Susan's book to everybody. I think everybody should read it. It's a kind of it's a memoir about adoption, about ethnicity and trying to find out who you are. It's absolutely gorgeous and you know, nina has written children's picture books, adult books. Nina has written children's picture books, adult books I would recommend anything that she writes. And then you know the local poetry community is really strong. We have Terry Tierney, who's one of our customers, who is a poet and you know he writes short stories and he's just a lovely, lovely man. And then you know, if you want to go down the spectrum of being a little further out, melanie Gideon, who has moved, but she I watched her career grow. She went from a very timid YA writer to to writing these big, bold novels.
Speaker 1:And do you often launch their books in the shop?
Speaker 2:I do a lot of book launches. Oh, and there's I forgot Alana DeBar. She had her very first book at 65 this year and I had been watching it. It's another one I've been watching for years become a book. I've been watching it be born yeah, because that's kind of how I look at it giving birth to a book.
Speaker 1:I think you've just touched on one of the most important things for an author to remember, and that is to build up a relationship or relationships with independent bookshop owners and booksellers. If they love your book, they will sell your book. Oh yeah, when I hear authors complaining about well, you know, I went to that indie bookshop but they won't carry my book I always say to them, where do you buy your books? And if they say Amazon, I ask them to think about what they've just said. And this gets back to our conversation about supporting your community.
Speaker 2:Well, you'd be amazed at how many people come in and they self-publish on Amazon and then they expect you to be excited about it. You're just going. Hmm, my whole theory is this is why we have Evers. That's why they have a job.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly, and most independent bookshops are on the smaller side and because of this, curation is important.
Speaker 2:We're very curated here.
Speaker 1:And also the books need to be easy to buy for the bookseller. So are they in a catalog? How are they distributed? And authors also need to encourage their readers to buy their books from their local indie bookshop. But they must take the time to build up a relationship with their local independent bookshop owner and booksellers and also support other authors in the area. Attend their book signings. Attend their book launches.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Oh, I forgot my good. How can I forget that she's one of? My really good friends. Catherine Rothschild, who did her debut novel, came out last, came up right in the middle of the pandemic and it was just like but she's another one who's just a beautiful person and a beautiful writer and she's out here with every single local person that she knows. She shows up at every event, and so does Susan Ito. Susan Ito, she's a godsend to the local literary community.
Speaker 1:Okay For anyone planning a few days in the Montclair area. What sites, hikes, museums and other indie businesses do you suggest they visit?
Speaker 2:The wonderful thing is we're right by Redwood Park, which is just up the street a little bit, and then there's the railroad trail which runs all the way through Montclair from one end to the other, and the indie businesses. I would recommend Pelago. They've been voted like for the last four years. They've been voted the best gift shop in Oakland and they're just two stores up from us and they're the most lovely people To eat. I would recommend Daughters Thai. It's beyond rebuff. It's one of the best Thai restaurants I've ever been to. And if you want to know what Mont Claire is really like, we have a very corner of the La Salle where we're located, we have Krogan's. It's an old fashioned Irish pub where everybody meets and if you really want to see the people of the Mont Claire village area, you go, hang out at Krogan's for like two hours and you'll get to meet 80% of them.
Speaker 1:Well, that sounds perfect. And what about elementary and high schools? Are there any in the area?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have right down the street. We have Montclair Elementary, and then we have, which we work with a lot. We love their library. Beth Guzman is just, she's a revelation of a librarian. And then we have um thornhill and we're right down the street from the middle school. Also monterra, we have a smiles preschool which is great, and the montclair play center which we've done benefits with. And I forgot, uh, we did a benefit with kamau bell there, because his daughter, um, he lives up here in the village and his daughter goes to Mont Clair day school. So we did a benefit. It's like the more we're talking, the more I'm remembering more people that we're connected to.
Speaker 1:But then what'll happen, kathleen, is that we'll end our Zoom meeting and you'll suddenly remember all of these other people you want to mention Exactly exactly. We would be remiss if we didn't talk about your booksellers. So who are they and what genres do they enjoy reading?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I'm so lucky I have the world's best booksellers. I mean, I really feel that you can't run a bookstore by yourself. You need to surround yourself by people who are like, thinking but also different enough that you have something else to offer. Okay, so mike, who was here? He was the one who got us online, he is our techno wizard, he runs our website and when we're in dire need for someone just to come down because we're overwhelmed, mike will come down and pinch head. He's probably our most eclectic reader. He reads non-fiction, he reads fantasy, reads literary fiction and he's also a big, a big fan of libro fm. He's a huge, huge listener because of his day job is he's an attorney, so when he's doing research and stuff he's always listening to a book.
Speaker 2:And then, um, next up is amy. She's our non-fiction kind of literary fiction. She was the one who who turned everybody on to um, we all want impossible things by katherine newman, and then the whole staff read it and every single member of our staff wrote a recommendation for that. And amy's also. She's our person who keeps the day-to-day going in the store. And then Sarah is. Well, sarah is an author in her own right. She writes middle grade and beginner books. She wrote the Bug Girl series and she is a big reader of middle grade. She's a literary fiction person and she's also kind of our cookbook maven. She can talk about cookbooks and she cooks all the time. So that's Sarah. And then Teresa is our. She likes a good thriller and she likes some good YA and then she likes kind of like very, very literary dark fictions. And then Em likes to describe herself as she likes to read unhinged women authors.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that. That needs to be an actual genre.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's her genre. And the funny thing is Em and I worked together at a bookstore years ago and that's when we became friends. When I got the store she came to work for me because she was my, one of my best friends, and she just came to support and she stayed. She took a few years off when her daughter was born, but she came and stayed. And then Sam is. Sam will read anything quirky and she's usually reading five to six books at a time and Sam is kind of like our zen piece person. You know you have one person on staff who's just like you know, very kind of zen and and everybody likes to be around them, and that's samantha. And then xena. Xena is our wild woman. They like, uh, queer fiction, they like sci-, and they're also in charge of our social media, which I don't know. If you've taken a look at our social media. They've done an amazing job.
Speaker 1:They've done a great job with your Instagram page. It looks fantastic.
Speaker 2:And then we have a few kids that work here, you know just part time, and you know they're kind of concentrating on, you know, working. They're busy at school and not reading a lot outside of school.
Speaker 1:Kathleen, you've just brought up an interesting point. When our two sons were going through junior and senior year of high school, they really didn't have much time for their own private reading. You know their personal reading genres they enjoyed discovering. And then one of them went on to law school and it took him about three or four years after he'd graduated to sit quietly and read a novel.
Speaker 2:Right, right when we were in high school. I don't remember being that overwhelmed by reading.
Speaker 1:Oh no, absolutely. I mean, I was just enjoying life. I don't remember the pressure, maybe in matriculation, which is 11 and 12, I guess, but it's completely different now. The pressure on these kids is ridiculous.
Speaker 2:No, I remember it being a kind of a fun thing and things that we were able to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we weren't coming home from school and then sitting for four hours doing homework. Yeah, yeah, it makes me sad to see these kids under so much pressure and experiencing stress at such a young age.
Speaker 2:Oh, I know, I know they just have. Their plates are so full.
Speaker 1:Well, let's talk about you. What do you enjoy reading?
Speaker 2:I'm a hard to put into a box. I have a rule I love a good rom-com but it has to be well enough written that I don't want to read it with a red pencil. I hear you and I like, kind of like dysfunctional Irish family books.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, I have a book for you. It is called the Coast Road by Alan Murren. He's going to be on the show in a couple of weeks. I highly recommend it. It's one of the best books I've read this year. Anyway, I'm so sorry I interrupted your train of thought, but I absolutely think you're going to love this book. It's wonderful.
Speaker 2:Oh no, that's fine, and you know who I really like. Did you read the Rachel Incident by Caroline O'Donoghue? No, but I definitely will now. Oh my God, it's about the 2008 crash in Ireland, in Dublin, and it takes place in a bookstore.
Speaker 1:How on earth did I miss that one? It sounds fabulous.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I loved, loved, loved it. I really loved. We Are the Brennans by Tracy Lane, and my favorite book of probably the last three or four years is we All Want Impossible Things by Katherine Newman.
Speaker 1:Now, that was the one Amy mentioned in the story and you all read it Is that right, yeah, yeah, with Amy.
Speaker 2:I said that Amy kind of let you know, kind of turned us all on to that. So I'm very grateful she did, because she may turn out to be one of my favorite authors of all time, then that's a great recommendation, thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I just I always. You know, I was telling Mike before we got on the call today that I'd fallen down the Catherine Newman hole. I've read her. I read we All Want Impossible Things, and then I read Sandwich, which comes out mid-June, and then I went and I read all of her blog posts and I read her articles. And then now I'm reading Waiting for Birdie, her book about her children and having her children. So I'm definitely down the hole. Her children and having her children. So I'm definitely down the hole.
Speaker 1:From experience I can say that once you're starting to read all their blog posts, you're hooked on that writer.
Speaker 2:It's so much fun. You know it's just. Her writing is just kind of what I need right now. I'm a firm believer in sometimes the right book presents itself at the right time.
Speaker 2:Yes absolutely, the right book presents itself at the right time. Yes, absolutely. And I feel that her writing is just funny, it's heartbreaking. You know, she makes me laugh, she makes me cry. I mean, I have to admit she's one of my very favorite. That's what I like. I like a book that takes me on a ride, and she always takes me on a ride.
Speaker 1:While we're talking about authors, when you reminisce about the store and the many author events you've held there, are there any particular events that have stood out for you and, if so, who and why?
Speaker 2:We had thousands of people it was nuts and we spent like an entire weekend living on the Hornet. It was the I think, the 50th anniversary of the splashdown yeah, I think it was the 50th anniversary because it was 2009. And we spent the entire weekend literally on the Hornet with Buzz Aldrin. So that was fun, and I think Taylor Jenkins Reid are you familiar with her?
Speaker 1:Yes, In fact I've tried to get her at an event in Santa Barbara and on the show, but sadly it hasn't happened yet.
Speaker 2:I absolutely love her. We did it for Daisy Jones and we did an in conversation with my friend Alex, who's a podcaster, a music podcaster and writer. And then, just two years later, right after the first event, after the big event, after the pandemic, we had like 75 people. At our first event we had over 350 people and we had to take it off site. So it was so much fun. The trifecta of YA authors, jandy Nelson, gail Foreman and Nina LaCour they're like all best friends and we had them and it was like watching you know, you were just like felt like you were spying on three best friends gathered together having a conversation.
Speaker 1:Oh, I bet that was fun.
Speaker 2:So much fun.
Speaker 1:Now, what about you? What are you currently reading?
Speaker 2:I just finished the Romcomers by Catherine Center, which I really liked. It's really fun. It's about two screenwriters who get together and one is trying to teach one how to write a rom-com. It's about the writing process and it's really fun. And then I've got a few books on deck that I'm going to start this week Matt Haig's new one, the Life Impossible, and Sam really liked this one, the Ministry of Time, and she thinks I'll like that, so I'm probably going to start that one too, yeah. And then I've read Carly Fortin's new book, which I really liked, and Stephen Rowley is one of my very favorite writers. He wrote the Gunkle and his new book, the Gunkle Abroad, which I absolutely loved.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I loved the Gunkle and the Gunkle Abroad too. In fact, I'm going to be in conversation with Stephen in August. Oh my God, you're going to love him.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, he's gorgeous. I went down to the Los Angeles Festival of Books months ago and, oh, I met him there and he just seems like such a sweetheart and funny. I think Stephen's books like one of my favorite authors, paul Rudnick. Their books contain information about social injustices that need to be talked about more. The great thing about both Paul Rudnick and Stephen Rowley's books is that they're wrapped in humor. I always look forward to getting the advanced reader copies of their books. It's wonderful.
Speaker 2:I get excited with each I call it. You know, when we get our galleys and we get the Edelweiss call it. It's kind of like Christmas, you know, you get to see what's coming and it's so exciting. I think that's one thing I've never gotten over in being in the book industry is the ability to read a book early.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, it's a fabulous perk and you can get readers excited about an upcoming book. It's just fantastic, it's so much fun. Oh, and before we go, I do want to turn you on to another Irish writer. She lives in Belfast. Her name is Jan Carson. She was the winner of the EU Prize for Literature with her book the Fire Starters. She's written another book called the Raptures, and her latest book, which just got picked up by Simon Schuster, is called Quickly While they Still have Horses. It's a collection of short stories. It's brilliant.
Speaker 1:Jan is coming out to the US in September. She's going to do the Lunch with an Author literary series event at Alencanto in Santa Barbara with me, and then she's going to come to Ojai to Bart's books and it's also going to do a short story writing workshop through the bookshop podcast in person in Ojai. I think she's a wonderful writer and I just mentioned a few of her books, so check her out too. I think you would love her writing. Oh, thank you, kathleen. It's been fabulous chatting with you. I think you and I could talk about books for days on end. I wish you continued success with A Great, good Place for Books and thank you for all you do to keep the community of Montclair reading. It's been fun getting to know you.
Speaker 2:Thanks, mandy, and it's been a pleasure getting to know you too. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to my conversation with Kathleen Caldwell. Thanks for having me. To find out more about the Bookshop Podcast, go to thebookshoppodcastcom and make sure to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to the show. You can also follow me at Mandy Jackson Beverly on X, instagram and Facebook and on YouTube at the Bookshop Podcast. If you have a favorite indie bookshop that you'd like to suggest we have on the podcast, I'd love to hear from you via the contact form at thebookshoppodcastcom. The Bookshop Podcast is written and produced by me, mandy Jackson-Beverly, theme music provided by Brian Beverly, executive assistant to Mandy, adrian Ohtohan, and graphic design by Frances Farala. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.