The Bookshop Podcast
The Bookshop Podcast
Publishing's Invisible DNA: A Deep Dive with John W. Warren
What happens behind the scenes before a book reaches your hands? John Warren pulls back the curtain on modern publishing in this fascinating conversation that travels from his unexpected entry into the industry to where books are headed in our AI-driven future.
Warren's publishing journey began in 1992 when a Mexican publisher hired him to research the US market for Spanish-language books. Three decades later, he's directing the Graduate Program in Publishing at George Washington University, preparing the next generation of publishing professionals with practical, hands-on skills across all aspects of the industry. His approach challenges the traditional "siloed" nature of publishing expertise, producing well-rounded graduates equipped to navigate an evolving landscape.
The conversation takes an illuminating turn when Warren describes metadata as "the DNA of publishing." This largely invisible aspect determines whether readers ever discover your book among millions of others. Warren explains how metadata extends far beyond basic information like title and author to include elements that significantly impact discoverability and sales. For authors and publishers alike, understanding this digital lifeblood has become essential.
Looking toward the future, Warren shares thought-provoking predictions about how AI might transform books themselves—creating dynamic reading experiences where information, images, and even audio narration can be generated on demand. These possibilities exist alongside the vital role of small and medium presses, which Warren celebrates for their risk-taking on diverse voices and translated works.
The discussion also explores how print-on-demand technology and international publishing partnerships are reshaping distribution, breaking down geographical barriers while supporting environmental sustainability. Warren's perspective as both a publishing veteran and classical guitarist offers a uniquely human view of an industry undergoing technological revolution.
Want to understand the invisible forces shaping what you read? This episode provides essential insights for authors, publishers, and curious book lovers alike. Subscribe to The Bookshop Podcast for more conversations with the people who bring books to life.
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a bibliophile. Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast. Each week, I present interviews with authors, independent bookshop owners and booksellers from around the globe and publishing professionals. To help the show reach more people, please share episodes with friends and family and on social media, and remember to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this podcast. You're listening to Episode 291.
Speaker 1:I have a few upcoming events I'd like to share with you. On Friday, May 23rd, I'm in conversation with Chef Linda Shui at the California Club downtown Los Angeles. For more information, you can email me at thebookshoppodcast at gmailcom. On Thursday, June 12th, author hall kelly and I will be in conversation at the lunch with an author literary series at the santa barbara club in santa barbara, california. Martha's latest novel, the martha's vineyard beach and book club, is a treasure. You can purchase your tickets at wwwmandyjacksonbeverlycom. Forward slash events.
Speaker 1:On Tuesday, June 3rd 2025, the Los Angeles World Affairs Council and Town Hall presents RIP the Rules-Based International Order, featuring Trita Parsi, Executive Vice President of the Quincy Institute. Parsi will examine the future of global governments, the evolving role of the UN and multilateral institutions, and how rising powers in the global South are reshaping the international landscape. The discussion will also explore how the international community can tackle urgent transnational challenges, from climate change to economic inequality, through more inclusive and equitable collaboration. For more information, go to lawacthorg and I'll place the link to this event in the show notes and hopefully I'll see you there. Okay, let's get on with this week's interview.
Speaker 1:John Warren has more than 25 years of senior management experience in publishing, having led groundbreaking initiatives in digital content development and distribution, including e-books, short-form digital content, enhanced e-books and websites, open access journals and open educational resources. Previously, he served as the director of the George Mason University Press and Mason Publishing Group. Prior to his work at George Mason, Warren served as the marketing and sales director for the Georgetown University Press, marketing director for publications at the RAND Corporation and marketing manager for Fondo de Cultura Economica. Hi, John, and welcome to the show. It's lovely to have you here.
Speaker 2:Thanks, mandy, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:You're welcome Now. You graduated just up the road from me from the University of California, santa Barbara, with a BA in Spanish and Portuguese, which you speak and write fluently, and then you went on to gain your Master's in International Management Latin America, from the University of California San Diego School of Global Policy and Strategy. You also have a deep love of music and are a classical guitarist, composer and performer. When did your interest in publishing arise?
Speaker 2:Well, I guess interest. You know, like a lot of people, I've always loved books, you know, since I was a kid. I remember, you know, going to the library and taking stacks of books and the librarian would say, oh, this is enough for the whole summer, and I was like no, this is for a week. But I never imagined working in publishing and I so. As you said, I graduated from UC San Diego, from my master's degree in international management management, and I was doing work with companies across the border, helping small and medium-sized companies sell things in Mexico and Argentina and Brazil, and a little bit helping companies in Mexico export to the US.
Speaker 2:And a large Mexican publisher called Fondo de Cultura Economica hired me back in 1992 to do some research on the US market for books in Spanish. So these weren't like textbooks, how to learn Spanish, they were novels, nonfiction, children's books in Spanish. And this Mexican publisher it was kind of like a university press but owned by the Mexican government they hired me to do this project, looking at the market for books in Spanish, and I delivered the project and then they they essentially hired me to to start doing that and, you know, getting into the? U the US market with with books from Mexico, and so that kind of got me going and it was. It was an interesting time to be in publishing and and to be in the Spanish language market because that was really growing. And so as, even though I was new in publishing, I was able to, like, speak at Book Expo America in my first year and things like that- what year was this?
Speaker 1:92. So did you mostly do Spanish to English or English to Spanish translations.
Speaker 2:No, it didn't really have much to do with translation. There were books in Spanish basically exported from Mexico to US. You probably remember Borders was emerging at that time. I first contacted them when they had only 10 stores and they had a buyer from Argentina who was interested in setting up a Spanish language section in every Borders store and I remember him saying oh you know, we're really growing, and they were. They were growing massively and I worked with Borders to kind of organize an entire section. I also worked with a lot of university bookstores to do that too, and we would recommend our titles but also other titles in Spanish. We would recommend our titles but also other titles in Spanish.
Speaker 2:And you know, as you know, there's many. I mean, even back in 92, there were, I think, 35 million Spanish speaking people in the US. That being said, it's not just one market. You know, there's people from Mexico, people from Peru, people from Cuba, people from Puerto Rico. The same language but different. You know, different cultures and different identities and different authors. But yeah, we had a lot of, like, nobel Prize winning authors like Carlos Fuentes and Rosario Castellano and Octavio Paz and people like that.
Speaker 1:And now you are the Director and Associate Professor Graduate Program in Publishing at the George Washington University. What hands-on skills does a student have after graduating from this publishing program?
Speaker 2:Well, I think you know part of it. We're really giving people skills in publishing, but also things like leadership skills, managerial skills, and they're learning from professionals who work in publishing, who have long time experience. I myself have been working in publishing for 32 years. I still consider myself primarily a publisher. We have people like Dean Smith, who's the director of Duke University Press, greg Britton, who's the editorial director at Johns Hopkins University Press, pooja Telakacharla, who's the licensing director at American Psychiatric.
Speaker 2:So students are learning from professionals. And you're right, these days we have Google, we have AI. You can learn a lot on your own, but I think there's still a lot of value of learning from professionals with deep experience and what we really emphasize is practical experience. So students are doing projects that mirror what they would do in the workplace as a, as an editorial assistant, as a marketing assistant. What I usually hear from employers is how well-rounded our students are. So in publishing, as you probably know, you know people often have deep expertise in one area, like like. I listened to your your interview with Andy Hughes, for example, and you know he. He knows production. Of course, he knows a lot of different things. He was, he was in publishing for decades. But often people are, you know what you call like silo.
Speaker 2:They have, like you know, they know everything about production, but they don't necessarily know marketing and we really try to have students you know know the editorial side, acquisitions, business and management, marketing, things like accessibility technology, so they come out of the program with a really wide knowledge and a really deep knowledge.
Speaker 1:And do most of them go off to work within publishing companies Most?
Speaker 2:of them do. You know, publishing is very broad, as you know. So I think the typical student, many of our students, like their dream is to go work in trade publishing, maybe as a YA editor, and some of them do go into trade publishing. We have students at Sourcebooks, at Penguin, random House, at Simon Schuster, and when they come into the program they don't really know about publishing. At, say, like associations and societies, like American Chemical Society or AAAS or American Psychological Association have huge publishing operations and many jobs, stable jobs, places like Sage Publishing or Wiley, and so these are not necessarily on students' radar. And then the other thing is it's not all about editorial. Most people kind of know what an editor does, but they don't necessarily think of a job like Andy Hughes in production. That's not on people's radar. But you can have a great career in production or in rights and permissions for example, things like that.
Speaker 1:You mentioned my conversation with Andy Hughes, who's the recently retired Senior VP and Director of Production Design at Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group, and Andy spoke in depth about the publishing process, the complexities of merging corporate cultures and computer systems, and he gave a behind the scenes look at the challenges of implementing new systems across Knopf's imprints. And you're right, that's just one section of publishing, but I recommend anyone who is listening to our conversation today to go back and listen to my conversation with Andy and I'll make sure to put that link in the show notes. And, as you said, publishing is much, much more than editing, marketing and publicity departments. Now, how do you see the future of libraries in the United States?
Speaker 2:Well, I think libraries, libraries are always evolving. Libraries, you know, of course, libraries is also a diverse market. You have academic libraries, you have corporate libraries. You know, of course, libraries is also a diverse market. You have academic libraries, you have corporate libraries, you have public libraries. One of the areas I've been involved with is on the academic side. Many libraries have gotten into publishing, so there's a whole library publishing coalition.
Speaker 2:Libraries are not necessarily known as publishers, but many of them do.
Speaker 2:And you know, libraries are always about providing service and values to their communities and I think, whether it's a public library or an academic library or a corporate library, that's what they're focused on is serving their communities.
Speaker 2:And I think publishers often have the frame of mind that libraries are hurting sales because they, you know, offer books to free you know, for free to people. I don't see it that way. Really essential part of the publishing landscape and indeed of our cultural and education landscape, and really add a lot of values and for everybody that you know checks out a book for free, you know you're still consuming knowledge and many people will go out and buy the book or recommend it to people and I think that if you're a publisher, the worst thing is that people are ignoring your books or not knowing about your books. So I think libraries are essential. I'm very troubled. Just the other day I read that the administration is cutting back on funds to libraries. Specifically the Institute for Museum and Library Science is cutting back, and you know there's a lot of cutbacks and you know they want to dismantle the whole Department of Education, for that matter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think if we go down that rabbit hole we shall never get out. It is a scary time for education, specifically libraries and book banning in the United States. Down that rabbit hole we shall never get out. It is a scary time for education, specifically, libraries and book banning in the United States, something I think is important, and maybe for more self-published authors, which is such an oxymoron, that word self-publishing, because it takes a team to publish a book. When you are self-publishing, you can go wide, or 30 days, or 30 or 90 days. Maybe you check that little box on Amazon which means you signed a contract saying that you cannot have your ebook on any other ebook platform for those 90 days. But if you go what is called wide, that gives you access to putting your ebook into libraries and I think this is really exciting. It is it is.
Speaker 2:I remember I was in the very early days of eBooks. I was one of the first people to do eBooks and that was one of the areas that was very early. I remember a company called NetLibrary. There was eBrary, there was quite a few companies and some of those are still around, like Overdrive, for example. They started back then. This was in the late 90s, early 2000s, before the Kindle event, and, like my wife reads most of her books checked out, you know, electronically from the library. I'm kind of old, like I'm very technologically, you know, savvy, but I still like reading, you know, print books.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm with you there, john. I remember when Kindle first came out, I tried it for about I don't know, 12 or 18 months, and after that time I just went. What am I doing? I don't like reading like this, so I went back to hard copy and paperbacks, let alone reading on a phone. I cannot imagine doing that at all. So the reason I carry quite a large purse around is because it's always got a book in it. I would like to learn more about metadata. What is the importance of metadata in publishing and what is it?
Speaker 2:Sure, one of my jokes is metadata is my hobby and metadata is an almost invisible part of publishing. But it really is what I've called the lifeblood of publishing. And I think today, in the digital age especially when I started in publishing 1992, metadata didn't really exist. It was emerging. But metadata let's define it it's data about data, so it was originally a computer term. But when we talk about book metadata, we're talking about all the aspects of the book. So you know who's the author, what's the title, what's the author, what's the title, what's the ISBN, what's the price, but also things like the cover image, the cover description, blurbs, you know the author, bio, and then you know Meta Day is almost endless. You know metadata is almost endless. It can include things like a podcast about the book, interview with the author, awards that the book has won or the author has won, so it's almost endless.
Speaker 2:One thing I was just talking about this yesterday with Todd McElroy, who you should have on your show too. He's also an expert on metadata. And you know most publishers. I think they still today undervalue and underutilize metadata. It's certainly a part of every publisher's operation, but in some ways I think many publishers do kind of the minimum in terms of metadata and, as I say, it's almost endless. I read an article about it several years ago. It's like a universe and it's also kind of DNA. It's like the really fine points. But it's also the big picture and one thing that Dad used as an example. He published a book recently about AI and publishing and he has the whole book available online. And, you know, hopefully people will buy the book in print or as an ebook, but the books all available and so that whole book is now metadata. So you know the content is metadata and I think again that you know we could go on and on about metadata is probably bored much of your audience, but it's, it's all you know. It's everything to do with the book.
Speaker 1:Okay, metadata is like the DNA of a book. So once you've uploaded your books to the multiple platforms, how do you go about finding the specific threads that are important to list with your book? Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes sense. Well, a lot of it's kind of invisible to the consumer, but it's definitely in platforms. So things like keywords, for example, using keywords. So things like keywords, for example, using keywords. So things that are beyond, say, the title.
Speaker 2:So a book I read recently that Princeton University Press published I don't know if you've seen this, but it's called Love at the Time of Self-Publishing how Romance Writers Change the Rules of Writing and Success. And you know, I personally don't read a lot of romance genre. But this book isn't so much about the genre as, like, the community of romance authors, and so an example would be, you know, even though it's not in the title or the subtitle, things like Romance Writers Association would be a good keyword for this book and, you know, maybe Romanticy or something like that. So there's a lot of keywords that you could use for finding this book. That wouldn't necessarily be, you know, in the book description or in the title or subtitle. There's also parts of metadata that might be involved, like licensing rights, like what you know what licensing or what translation rights are available could be part of the metadata as well.
Speaker 1:And with keywords. Are you better to use a single word, like you suggested romanticize or would it be better to use the words romantic fiction?
Speaker 2:it could be both, yeah, I think, kind of phrases up to maybe five words. You know phrases five words and and you can have like many keywords. I think usually you want to kind of prioritize, um, maybe like the top five, but you could add several different keywords. And you know it's kind of part of search option optimization search engine optimization and metadata kind of can go along together. So if somebody is looking for a book on, say, amazon or bookshoporg, finding your book out of the hundreds of books on a particular topic, and so you know, the better metadata you have, more likely people are going to find your book when they're searching for it.
Speaker 1:And what is the job description or the job name for a person who does this kind of work at a publishing company?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good question. So yeah, you know that can be a career now, often as part of marketing. I think metadata kind of touches all parts of publishing. I have seen jobs like metadata specialist so you could get hired as a metadata specialist, often in a marketing department, could be part of the marketing assistant. But like a production person is adding to the metadata, an editorial person is probably adding to the metadata, so it kind of touches all parts. But often you do have a person like responsible for it.
Speaker 1:I've noticed on platforms such as Readsie you can actually find people who specialize in metadata. I think this is kind of exciting because it's great to see a whole new career line kind of emerging within the publishing industry.
Speaker 2:True, yeah, yeah, I mean other examples like now I've seen jobs of, like data analytics person and things like that.
Speaker 1:John, how do you see the future of digital content and distribution?
Speaker 2:Well, you know. So this we were talking at the beginning. Publishing is always changing. I think, you know, for 500 years publishing has changed, but it's definitely accelerating, and one of the big changes today obviously is AI, and I think publishers are still grappling with this. Many publishers are kind of looking at how AI can improve existing operations, but I think one thing that's interesting is how it can change the book in ways that we're not even really thinking about. So you mentioned before you know we were talking a little bit about ebooks. So imagine reading an ebook and it brings up a term, like I mentioned earlier, romance Writers Association and so you don't know anything about romance. So maybe you click on that term and it uses AI to tell you about Romance Writers Association or some deep topic. You're reading a book about cancer and it's explaining elements of cancer that are not in the book. Or even you know, maybe you're reading a YA fantasy book and and it can create an image for you that you know it's not in the book that's impressive, isn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah yeah, I need to check that out yeah, I think you know.
Speaker 2:One thing we haven't seen quite yet but I think will be pretty soon is you know, if you're reading a book on your Kindle and you, you know, want to listen to the audio version it's right there read by a famous actor or a voice narrator? It can use AI to read you the book and it will sound pretty close to a real person. It's not the same as having an actor read it.
Speaker 1:I heard from a friend that if you are reading a book on a Kindle and then you get in your car and you press the audio, it will actually line up to where you finish the book. I haven't done this. Like I said, I haven't used my Kindle in years. Do you know anything about this? I'm curious.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they do sync them up, but it's still separate. You know, right now, right now it's still like a separate item and I think pretty pretty soon they're just going to be completely linked.
Speaker 1:Gosh, it's fascinating. John, I am a huge supporter of small and medium presses and I feel they are a pillar in publishing right now. I mean, you look at the Booker Awards and it's the small presses that are behind many of the authors whose books are being chosen for shortlists. How do you see small and medium presses place in publishing?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a really good question and I also value the small presses and they're also very, very varied. So one, you know, one area that I've worked in quite a bit is university presses, and these are not necessarily independent because they're associated with a university, but they're similar to independent presses. They're certainly nonprofits. So you have like Princeton and Johns Hopkins, but you've got like smaller ones like Kentucky or Ohio State University Press, and then, as you say, I love the independents. You know you can go on and on, but like Tin House or Coffee House Press, gray Wolf, you know, some of these are not on people's radars, like I interviewed a guy a few years ago, alan Stavans, who owns a small press called Restless Books. There's Beehive Books in Philadelphia, there's so many and they're all, like you said, they're able to take risks.
Speaker 2:I think one of my friends is a publisher of Melville House and he publishes things that he and his wife are the publishers and he publishes what he believes in books that move him, books that move culture, books that move culture, books that make a difference. You do see worthwhile books from the big five, but they're not as much risk takers. They want to publish the same thing. You know, like Fourth Wing is really big, so now they want to publish. You know a million versions of Fourth Wing, yeah, and it's great. You know that the small presses can really do worthwhile books and emerging authors and more diverse voices. I think in the US, for example, we haven't had as many books in translation as other countries, but I do see that increasing. You see more and more books from Latin America, from Greece, from every culture you can think of.
Speaker 1:Many of the publishers I have spoken with over the last five years said that when the pandemic came and everyone was in lockdown, people started asking for more translated books, and I love that. I think that's what happens. Publishers need to listen to their readers. Sometimes, I think there's a bit of a disconnect there, from the publishers and the publishing house through to the readers. Same goes for LGBTQ plus authors and readers. People want to be able to see themselves on a bookshelf. One of the things that we haven't talked about yet is distribution, which is imperative for any publishing house. Do you see many changes happening in distribution?
Speaker 2:Well, distribution is tough. It's tough to find a good distributor. Some of the distributors for small we were talking about small press some of the small distributors have closed, but there are also opportunities. So, like Ingram, for example, you can get, you know, really worldwide distribution with Ingram. So I think there are a lot of opportunities. One of the things that's really a game changer this has been around for a few decades but it's still growing is print on demand. So now if I'm a small publisher, I can work with a company like Ingram and set up the book so it's printed on demand in Latin America, in the UK, in the EU, and not have to ship books overseas. And the same for e-books. You can, you know, distribute worldwide with e-books.
Speaker 2:I think you know, one of the things I think AI is going to help with it's already doing this, but it's going to only increase is AI-assisted translation. Ai-assisted translation. I would still want a translator to do the stack and edit. My wife's a translator. I do a bit of translation myself. I value translation, but I think, for example, most presses it's very difficult to have all your books translated. But if AI can reduce the cost and reduce the time to translate, I'm also seeing.
Speaker 2:You know, one thing I'm seeing a lot is partnerships, multilingual partnerships. So, for example, I mentioned Princeton University Press earlier. They have a partnership now with Planeta, which is a one of the biggest Spanish language publishers, if not the biggest, and it's not for all their books but for certain books. They will do a simultaneous edition where Planeta will do the book in Spanish and Princeton will do the book in in English. And likewise I mentioned Restless Books. They do many of their books similar, where they will partner with, say, like, a Polish publisher and a French publisher and acquire the rights from an author, you know, in multiple languages at the same time. So I think that those kind of partnerships are really interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a couple of things about POD.
Speaker 1:It is great for the environment, obviously.
Speaker 1:But for any readers who are thinking, oh yeah, but I want to get my book tomorrow morning and I, you know, so I'm going to order it from Amazon or online tonight. And the thing is that, yes, that book will arrive at four o'clock in the morning, but you can also call your local independent bookshop and if it's a POD book, it's going to arrive in probably two days and you might be able to get it delivered to your doorstep. So, readers, remember, if you go into an independent bookshop and you don't see the author's book that you want to buy on the bookshelf, ask for it and they will get it in for you. And as far as small and medium presses go, I think I'm right about this when I say if they end up selling a lot of books through POD and they can, you know they have proof of sales then they can actually go to someone like Ingram or other distribution houses, and if they see that the business is building from the small press, then they will actually offer you distribution through a wider company.
Speaker 2:I mean they have some things available to anybody. But you're right, as you get bigger, they have more robust programs, for sure.
Speaker 1:And John, what are you currently reading?
Speaker 2:Well, I just read the Love in the Time of Self-Publishing, which I thought was great. I have a book club as part of my publishing program and we read that as a book club and we had the author join us. I just started. One thing that was on my mind for a while is rereading a book called Pedro Paramo by Juan Rufo, which I read many years ago in Spanish and have been meaning to reread that. So I'm rereading that and I'm also reading a book called the Bookmakers, which is about the making of the book.
Speaker 2:Now, I can't remember the author off the top of my head, but it's a relatively new book about like the history of books and the history you know, typography. Like he gets into Baskerville. He talks about Ben Franklin, who, of course, was a big publisher, one of the first US publishers. I always like books like that. I also kind of like the indie magazine landscape too. Like you mentioned, I play guitar and I also kind of like the indie magazine landscape too. Like you mentioned, I play guitar and one of my favorites is Fretboard Journal, and this is a new one. I don't know if you've seen this, but this is like it's called Eleven and it's basically like a coffee table magazine about cars.
Speaker 1:This is the kind of thing I love. Do you know how many books they publish a year?
Speaker 2:I think they're only doing like two a year or maybe three a year. Not very many, but they're really cute. Fretbird Journal is the same. I think almost every area has. One of the phrases I use with my students is dominate the micro niche. So it's not just the niche. Know, dominate the micro niche. So it's not, it's not just the niche, but like the micro niche. So you find like a community and and there's, I think you know there's like a micro niche for everything.
Speaker 1:Really, yes, there definitely is, Gosh. I could talk about publishing with you all day. I am just intrigued with it. I mentioned earlier that you are also a musician. Where can people go on the internet to listen to your music?
Speaker 2:Well, you can find me on YouTube if you search on John W Warren or just my website is johnwwarrencom. There's a lot of John Warren, so if you use John W Warren, you'll find me pretty easy. And yeah, I do a lot of concerts with an organization called Group Muse, which is a really fascinating community that kind of unites hosts and musicians and audiences. I have a concert coming up this weekend and it's like the old idea of a salon, so you go in somebody's home, you perform a couple sets of music, people mingle and you know and have. You know, have a sense of community. But when I play people are really listening. So it's not like being in a bar just being background music. It's nice to have people actually listen. So it's great.
Speaker 1:I put on these Lunch with an Author events in Santa Barbara and Los Angeles and I kind of wanted the feeling of a salon. It's not in someone's house, it's in a club, but it's funny it's actually turned into something like a salon. People really need connection right now. There's been so much loneliness across the globe and I think when you come together in a small group whether it be to listen to music, poetry, any kind of reading, to hear music or to see someone dance or to put on a play somewhere small that has an intimate atmosphere, it just can't be beat. It's wonderful. Before we go, can you talk a little about the classes that you teach? And I was also wondering if there's like a mini class someone like me could take.
Speaker 2:Well, one of the classes I'm teaching right now. You know most of my program. It's like a master's program or we have a graduate certificate. But I did just find out, you know, sometimes you just don't know things exist. I did just find out, you know, sometimes you just don't know things exist. I did just find out that we do have an avenue that people like yourself could take like a single course. I can send you info on that, like you might want to take, like my publishing entrepreneurship class, which is about that, like starting your own publishing business.
Speaker 2:One thing I tell my students it's easy to set up your own business in publishing. It's hard to make money at it, but I have a little imprint and my goal is just not lose money. I don't really need to make money on it, I just don't want to lose money on it and I think that's pretty achievable. But again, you got to do the marketing on your own. But we were talking about metadata. If you have good metadata and the author's known, I think it just depends on how much time you have to invest in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess that goes for any business, right? Yeah, John, thanks for chatting with me today. I found everything you've said really interesting and I am going to try and learn more about metadata. Anyway, thanks for being on the show, John.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks for having me and let me know when it's out and I'll make sure to promote it.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to my conversation with John W Warren, Program Director, Publishing Associate Professor at the George Washington College of Professional Studies. To help the show reach more people, please share episodes with friends and family and on social media, and remember to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this podcast. To find out more about the Bookshop Podcast, go to thebookshoppodcastcom and make sure to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to the show. You can also follow me at Mandy Jackson Beverly on X, Instagram and Facebook and on YouTube at the bookshop podcast. If you have a favorite indie bookshop that you'd like to suggest we have on the podcast, I'd love to hear from you via the contact form at thebookshoppodcastcom. The Bookshop Podcast is written and produced by me, Mandy Jackson-Beverly, Theme music provided by Brian Beverly, executive assistant to Mandy, Adrian Otterhan and graphic design by Frances Farala. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.