The Bookshop Podcast
The Bookshop Podcast
Exploring the Power of Writing in Processing Grief with Dina Gachman
Have you ever pondered the profound impact that writing can have on the processing of grief? Join me as I walk through this journey with award-winning journalist and best-selling ghostwriter, Dina Gachman. Her captivating journey from a horse-loving child writer to an influential scribe is a riveting one. We touch on the fuels of her creativity, and delve into her new book of essays, So Sorry for Your Loss: How I Learned to Live with Grief, and Other Grave Concerns, which is a deep dive into the varied manifestations of grief.
Did you know the loss of a pet could be a child's first encounter with grief? This episode also explores the universal experience of grief as Dina and I share personal anecdotes like the one about Adrian the toad, and how such experiences often serve as poignant life lessons. We also traverse the emotional landscape of grief, the importance of acknowledging it, and the collective guilt that a family may endure due to substance abuse. Tune in to this beautiful conversation that is as heartwarming as it is healing.
Dina Gachman
So Sorry for Your Loss, Dina Gachman
David Poses Interview on The Bookshop Podcast
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson Beverly and I'm a Bibliophile. Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast. Each week, I present interviews with independent bookshop owners from around the globe, authors, and specialists in subjects dear to my heart; the environment and social justice. To help the show reach more people, please share it with friends and family and on social media, and remember to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this podcast. You're listening to Episode 221.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:Dina Gachman is a Pulitzer Center grantee, an award-winning journalist, and a frequent contributor to the New York Times, Vox, Texas Monthly, Teen Vogue and more. She also writes a monthly movie column for the New York Times. She's a best-selling ghostwriter and her first book, Brokenomics, was published by Hachette/Seal Press. Her new book of essays about grief, So Sorry for Your Loss, was published in April 2023 by Union Square and Co. Dina spent three years as head copywriter on Clio award-winning content for UPROXX Studios. She has appeared on ABC's 2020, CBS, We Are Austin, Chicago's WGN, and Texas Standard. She's written two comic books for Blue Water Comics about legendary superheroes Marilyn Monroe and Elizabeth Taylor. She lives near Austin, Texas, with her husband and son. Hi, Dina, and welcome to the show. It's lovely to have you here! DINA GACHMAN: thank you. Thank you for having me. MANDY JACKSON-BEVERLY: My pleasure. Let's begin with learning about you and where your interest in writing derived.
Dina Gachman:Sure, so I'm born and raised in Texas, Fort Worth and then Houston, and I loved writing really as long as I can remember. I think I wrote my first book when I was about first grade. I stapled a bunch of pages together and it was about horses, because we all loved horses at that age. But I just always loved reading. I loved words and language and probably started journaling about seventh grade.
Dina Gachman:Very seriously, I still have all my journals here at my house and they're hilarious to look through because a lot of them are about, you know, boys being mean to me, but then they get a little deeper about life and things like that. But really it's all I've ever wanted to do. And so I just was always buried in a book, even my like high school papers. When we had assignments I took them very seriously, like I lived in the library. I did very heavy research. You know, sort of nerdy about it and I think you know, looking back, that was maybe like the seeds of journalism for me, you know, doing all that research and writing books. But it's really all I've ever wanted to do. I think there was like a brief moment I wanted to be an archaeologist, but that did not last. But it took a while for me to get to the point of being a professional writer. I worked for the school paper at college, but I also waited many tables along the way.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:Oh, join the club. In fact, I actually enjoy waiting tables. I don't know why, but I think it's because you meet so many people. And I also wanted to be an archaeologist when I was a little girl. Maybe it's something about being so young and wanting to delve into our past as females. I don't know.
Dina Gachman:And I think there's like a link between writing and archaeology, because I have another writer friend and she also wanted to be an archaeologist. It's very strange, so that's worth looking into, maybe.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:Yeah, maybe yes. Dina, one of the things that attracted me to your work was that you write on a diverse array of content and media, and there are examples of this on your website at Dina Gachman Writes dot com, and I'll make sure to put that link in the show notes. So I was curious, do you work through an ad agency or are you freelance?
Dina Gachman:I'm freelance. So for a time I had an agent. I've gone through phases in life where, like I said, I will wait tables and write on the side, and then a lot of the brand and content was that I had a full-time office job working for a creative agency. So all of that was done with an office job for a couple of years writing brand and content again, basic advertising. But now I'm fully freelance. So I have a book agent and then I do a lot of ghost writing and so most of my ghost writing comes through my agent. But any articles and things like that are all just either me pitching or editors coming to me.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:And is it mainly copywriting when you do the video content?
Dina Gachman:It was at the time. I don't do it anymore, but at the time it was copywriting and pitching ideas for videos and writing scripts. It was actually pretty fun. But I much prefer the free ranging freelance where I can say, hey, I want to write about this random topic and pitch whoever's best for it.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:I enjoyed reading a couple of your articles on your website. Two specifically come to mind, one was titled Rats in the Walls Baby on the Way, which was wonderful, and the other one was your story about the Jean-Michel Basquiat exhibit in LA.
Dina Gachman:It's amazing. The one in LA, it's incredible.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:Yes, and that exhibit is open. It's been extended actually in Los Angeles until January 1st 2024. Okay, let's talk about your new book, So Sorry for your Loss, where you write about grief, specifically the death of your mother and sister. Did you journal during the last year of your mother's life, or were you unable to put pen to paper until much later?
Dina Gachman:I was unable to write anything. Once my mom was diagnosed, which was 2015, she was diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer, I was working at the ad agency, so I was doing that kind of writing. But looking back it's funny, I did think about this. My creative writing, just from myself, really kind of stopped. And looking back, I think I just had no idea how to process what we were going through. And really the first thing that brought me back to the kind of writing that I really loved to do was about a year after my mom died. I wrote an essay about we had this shared love of Hollywood red carpets, and so I wrote about the fact that watching the Hollywood red carpets was a way for me to keep my mom's memory alive, and that was my first New York Times byline and that - I remember writing that and thinking okay, I think I'm back.
Dina Gachman:Like I think I can do this, but yeah, for a very long time I just couldn't even put pen to paper, as you say. It was really hard.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:It's like you don't want to miss any part of the last part of their lives. So to even pick up a pen and paper takes that away from being with them. That's how I felt with my mother. I just kept hoping that I would remember certain things later. You know the parts that stab you in the heart.
Dina Gachman:Yeah, I was going to say the parts that are burned into your brain. There's yeah you know, I wasn't taking notes or anything, but there's just certain things that you just never forget. You know, like my mom's hospice she was on hospice for eight days. So before I even wanted to write a book, I wanted to write about that experience because it was pretty wrenching and singular for us. But I didn't take any notes, I just, you know, wrote from memory. But I think when you're in that grief, it's really hard to be creative. At least for me it was very hard to be creative.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:Yes, it is, and the most important thing is scheduling, making sure they're comfortable. The last thing you think about are your needs. It's more about what the person suffering needs. When is their medication due? Yeah, it's surreal looking back, isn't it?
Dina Gachman:Yes, yeah, I wasn't thinking much about my own creative needs at that time, that's for sure.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:And your son was quite young when you were going through this with your mom, right?
Dina Gachman:He was. He was 13 months when she, when she, passed away, so he was really little. So also that probably contributed to the fact that my brain was pretty much shriveled up having a little one. But yeah, so I also had to take care of him and I had a full-time job and it just wasn't even part of what I was trying to do, so it took a while.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:Something I've been thinking about a lot lately is that many families lost multiple family members during the pandemic, and worldwide, we watch the death toll rise daily. The entire world population shared, and is still sharing, a collective grief. What toll do you feel this has on humanity and on those still reeling from heartache, along with the financial stress of unpaid medical bills?
Dina Gachman:You know, I think one thing coming through this pandemic which is not over, obviously and you know, tell that to anyone who lost a loved one. To say it's over is a little disrespectful.
Dina Gachman:But I think that, on the one hand, I do think people are talking about grief more openly, and death as well, because we've all been forced to confront it, you know, right there in our faces every single day, in 2020 especially.
Dina Gachman:But I think that it has, you know, the last chapter of my book is about collective grief, because I do think it is something that is so important and we sort of lost that you know, we've sort of at least in this culture and I know in the UK too I've talked to people there that you're supposed to kind of tuck it away and cry at the funeral but then move on. And I think, coming through this pandemic, I think there's kind of a feeling of no, that's actually not what we're supposed to do. Like we can openly grieve. You don't have to be weeping in the streets, and you know, but I think hopefully it's allowing us to be more open about it on the positive side. But I know there's a lot of people still obviously struggling and suffering and, and you know, it's going to take time for that kind of healing, but I think, the more we can all talk about it.
Dina Gachman:It'll make people feel less isolated, because it's really easy to become isolated and feel like you're the only one.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:Getting back to collective grief, it's an interesting phenomenon, it's overwhelming. But then to have unpaid medical bills on top of this grief, oh my goodness. When I was reading your book, something came up for me, and that was when my mother was dying, she had cancer and dementia, and she was in a nursing home in Tasmania, Australia. Now we had to rely on the nursing staff to administer her morphine, and you know if there was something going on with another patient and they couldn't get to her in time it was so frustrating to see her in pain. But in reading your book I realized you were able to administer the morphine. Is that correct?
Dina Gachman:Unfortunately yes. Yeah, she was at home. S he had been in the hospital before that, but we just decided let's bring her home, because you know, a week of the beeping and the machines and it was, it was time to go home. So, but what we didn't realize was that we would be the ones doing the medications and making sure we were on time, and so that was a huge shock. But, yeah, here, when you're at home, it's the family doing it. I think a lot of people don't realize that. You think at home hospice is like the humane kind thing to do, but it's really hard on the loved ones. But you know, I guess in the end it was nice because she was at home.
Dina Gachman:But, yes, my sister and I were making these like illegible charts, trying to remember every two hours. And it was very brutal and that you know, that's one of the things that I think that I say in the book. It's not the hospice nurses fault, right, they're doing their job, insurance and incredibly hard job. But it's the way the system is set up. It's very clinical and it's very like okay, get as many houses as you can. And so we were doing it and we did have - I write about this in the book - but there was one episode where we lost the morphine. We could not find it and it was terrifying because they weren't going to be there in time. We found it eventually, it was right in front of our eyes, but we were very tired. But we did have a moment where we thought we lost it, which was not fun.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:Lost it in more ways than one.
Dina Gachman:Exactly right, yes.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:On page 151, you speak with Kaleel Sakakeeny, a pet loss and bereavement counselor and CEO of Animal Talks, a Boston based nonprofit that helps people navigate the grief of a pet. For children, losing a pet is often the first time they experience grief. Sakakeeny explains, grief is grief. Can you expand on this?
Dina Gachman:I did speak with him. You know the book is part memoir, part narrative reporting because it's it's largely my story. But I talked to a lot of experts and other people about their grief. So I did speak to him and I thought it was so interesting that his whole entire practice is pet grief. And it's funny because that chapter was one that I actually got cold feet about.
Dina Gachman:I told the editor I don't, I don't think I want to put this in here because I thought maybe it's gonna feel too frivolous. You know, I'm talking about losing my sister, my Mom, and I'm so glad that she pushed me to keep it because we got a dog, like pretty much right when I was writing the book and as soon as we came home I was like, okay, this is extremely valid because I love this animal and it comes up a lot. A lot of people are like you know this, this isn't a type of grief, it's often acknowledged in the same way and it's so valid. And so when I talked to Sakakeeny, he basically was saying you know, he said, grief is grief. Meaning whether it's a parent or a pet, it all should be validated and those feelings are real. And he also said that a lot of people that come to him will say, like you know, I don't know what's wrong with me, but I'm more distraught over my dog's death than my dad's death. And I actually heard that from a friend recently too, he's like this is harder. And it's interesting because what he was saying is that our relationships with our pets are so pure, right, there's there's no inviting, there's no like you know, they didn't gamble your money away, it's just such a pure love. It's really hard to, you know, let go of that.
Dina Gachman:But I also started to notice with my son, you know he's little and I'm trying to talk to him about my mom and my sister and in an honest way, but also not scare him and, and so he was probably about four, I guess. We moved into this house and there's you know, it's Texas, there's toads everywhere and and toads get smushed, and so he became obsessed with a toad he named Adrian. And so he thought every toad was Adrian, he wanted to sleep with Adrian, to sleep in the bed with him. And he didn't. But one day there was a smushed toad in the driveway and he was like, it's Adrian! He was so distraught and we talked about it and we said a little thing for Adrian, but it made me realize that, you know, pet death is often the first time we ever confront death or grief as kids, or whatever it may be.
Dina Gachman:So it's really an important relationship and so that is incredibly valid because I think, especially for little kids, whether it's a toad or their family pet, like, that's their first experience with like well, what does that mean? Where did they go? And so, as parents, it's important to you know, acknowledge that and talk to them and not say like, oh, it's just a dog, you know, but I think that's so horrible when people say that. Oh, it's awful.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:I remember years and years and years ago I think I was in my 20s, and I can't remember where I read it, but it was a psychology book and it spoke about how every seven years is a growth spurt emotionally for humans. And how at seven years of age, or around about then, is when a lot of kids will start like night terrors or they'll start questioning reality versus fantasy. And for many children that's when they lose a loved one, not just a pet, a grandmother or a great grandmother or someone, and they can develop night terrors because they're scared. They have a realization that there is this thing called death. And this piece of writing stuck with me forever because I think I experienced that and I was frightened. So, yes, grief is grief. And I love that in your book you share this story of little Adrian the toad.
Dina Gachman:Poor Adrian.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:Yes, may he rest in peace.
Dina Gachman:May he rest in peace. We've been through that with ladybugs and caterpillars and many, many creatures since then, so it's an ongoing. We live a little bit in the country, so it's it's pretty common.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:But isn't that great about children how they remind us of all this stuff that we just bypass sometimes. Because like you said, there's toads everywhere in Texas and they're smushed. But yeah, they do remind us of that innocence and the things that we tend to look over. When a friend loses a loved one, we often struggle for words to say or write, and some people find actions a more comfortable way to express their emotions, such as delivering food or flowers to show they care. What forms of expression did you find comforting after losing your mother and sister? And I thought your little write up of helpful, not helpful, on page 17, things to do and say for someone who is grieving was truly helpful, so let's talk about that.
Dina Gachman:So, yeah, well, the reason the book's called So Sorry For Your Loss is because when my Mom died I found that phrase really made me angry. I found it to be lazy and cold, and just didn't reflect how we were feeling. You know, so sorry for loss, condolences, that's what everybody says, and it just made me, you know, angry. And I've calmed down because I understand that, you know, people are - it's very hard to talk about grief and a lot of people don't know what to say, so they go to those phrases so at least they're saying something. So I'm not so angry at the phrase. But that's why I called the book that.
Dina Gachman:But you know, I appreciate one thing that somebody said after my sister died, because she died two years after my mom, and somebody said you know, this is so tragic, my heart is breaking for you. That's what I appreciate. It's somebody acknowledging, you know, that it is tragic and it is heartbreaking and I think people are scared to trigger a grieving person. But we already know it's tragic. You're not really telling us anything, we don't know. So I think it's really acknowledging it. You don't have to say like, how are you even waking up in the morning? like you don't have to say that, but you know.
Dina Gachman:Even though I appreciated the, you know, this is so heartbreaking and I really love it when people will say you know, if they didn't know my family, they'll say, like what was your sister's name? Like I think that's so, it's so simple and it's just such an acknowledgement of the person. So those things are helpful. What's not helpful is like, time heals all wounds, or you know, they're in a better place. You know, things like that I think for most people who are grieving, are very upsetting. Right, because they're not in a better place. I mean, whether you, you know, if you believe in heaven you'd still rather them be here. So it's a little bit systemic, that stuff.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:Oh, yes, absolutely. But I thought that chapter was really helpful and it did help answer a lot of questions. Now you were with your mom when she passed, but you weren't able to be with your sister when she died, and that form of grief is different. It's so painful, it's shocking. So let's have that conversation.
Dina Gachman:Yes, so yeah, with my mom, we knew, you know, we had the eight days of process and we kind of also, before that, knew that this was coming at some point. When it happened, it happened quickly, but we got - we sat with her, we, we weren't wondering what happened. Or, you know, we were right there. With my sister, she had suffered from alcoholism for years, so it was, it was a fear we always had, but she had been sober for a year. So it was a total shock. When we got the phone call, we just didn't expect it at all. She was, you know, 40 years old and so it was very shocking.
Dina Gachman:I was on an airplane and it just, it was a different kind of thing, because I couldn't, you know, I wasn't holding her hand and there was a lot of mystery involved, which is really hard because, you know, then I'm trying to piece together, like what happened and where, who was she with? Because we didn't know, and so it had that piled on top of, you know the grief that was already happening. So you know, I think that when it, when it comes as a shock, there's different things to grapple with. So that was hard, and I did go down a rabbit hole of trying to investigate. Like who was with her and what happened. MANDY JACKSON-BEVERLY: And Dina, were you able to get those questions answered?
Dina Gachman:DINA GACHMAN: A little bit. I mean she, I think a lot of Alcoholics and people with substance abuse issues will die alone. And so my sister was in a hotel. She was alone. So there's not much, I mean I got a little bit of answers, but not much. But I think in the end it's just you know this, the simple truth is it was alcohol and you know, that's what happened. But you know there's a lot of guilt with that too.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:Yes, I understand it's a really tough one. What I can tell you is that I'm a recovering alcoholic and have been for many, many years, and I want to say it really is up to the individual to get sober, and stay sober. And that's the absolute truth. I'm sure you've already heard those words, but that's what I wanted to offer you.
Dina Gachman:Well, thank you for saying that. Yeah, but it's, it's nice to hear and I, you know I think my parents especially struggled with that for years and just the guilt and what can we do and you know, it's really hard on everyone, including my sister. S o, obviously.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:It's from an episode I did with David Poses. His book is called The Weight Of Air: a story of the lies about addiction and the truth about recovery. Sadly, David died a few months after our interview, but his book, it really stayed with me. His story stayed with me. So, for anybody out there interested in recovery, particularly heroin addiction, please read David's book or at least listen to that episode. Okay, let's talk about something else. Let's talk about books. What are you currently reading, Dina?
Dina Gachman:So I'm reading a lot of, I don't know if you know Margaret Renkl. She's a southern writer and s he writes a column for the New York Times, but her third book is about to come out, so I'm going to actually interview her. So I'm deep into her work. But she writes really beautifully. She writes about nature, but well, she's really writing about you know life, and, you know, marriage or, you know, becoming an empty nester or whatever is going on in her life, but through the lens of nature, it's very meditative, very beautiful. So I'm reading a lot of her work. And then R. Eric Thomas is an essayist I love. So I'm about to start his new book. So I'm going from meditative nature to a very funny essayist. So I get to go to Nashville, so that's fun.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:Oh, lucky you! Dina, I loved your book, So Sorry For Your Loss. And we didn't talk about the cover. I love it. Did you have any input on the cover design?
Dina Gachman:My input, so the cover is a, you know, like two hands holding out a casserole. So that was actually the the publisher's idea. But when they sent the first drafts of it, there was no nail polish on the hands. And I'm a, I'm a Texas girl. So I was like y'all need to airbrush some nail polish on there please! So that was my input, was the nail polish, but that was all them.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:You know what you were right. It makes a big difference, it does. DINA GACHMAN: Yes, I was horrified. MANDY JACKSON-BEVERLY: Dina, I wish you ongoing success with your writing and I just loved your book, So Sorry for your Loss, and thanks for being on the show.
Dina Gachman:Thank you, Mandy. Thank you so much for helping me. I appreciate it. Bye.
Mandy Jackson-Beverly:You've been listening to my conversation with Dina Gachman about her book, So Sorry For Your Loss: How I Learned to Live with Grief and Other Grave Concerns. To find out more about The Bookshop Podcast, go to thebookshoppodcast. com and make sure to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to the show. You can also follow me at Mandy Jackson Beverly on X, instagram, and Facebook and on YouTube at The Bookshop Podcast. If you have a favorite indie bookshop that you'd like to suggest we have on the podcast, I'd love to hear from you via the contact form at thebookshoppodcast. com. The Bookshop Podcast is written and produced by me, Mandy Jackson Beverly, theme music provided by Brian Beverly, executive Assistant to Mandy, Adrian Odtohan, and Graphic Design by Francis Farala. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.